Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Along the way, John defends his actions by saying that he was chosen to turn each sin against the sinner. Read our extensive list of rules for more information on other types of posts like fan-art and self-promotion, or message the moderators if you have any questions. But like any movie that is this thought out and detailed, there are dozens of little Easter eggs and tidbits that the average audience member would never notice. I think pride was the choice made after the disfigurement: He planned that after the first murders some detective will catch his trace. In most cases, its a fairly obvious example of that sin. The Megatherium dominated the continent's . Still alive to win titles are Berks Catholic's . During their pursuit of John Doe, it's natural that Detective Mills and Detective Somerset brainstormed what exactly the motives behind these crimes could be. This actually paints Somerset as representingSe7en's final (and eighth) sin: apathy. Seriously. However I would say yes, don't think about it so muchthe film is 25 years old nowthere are bound to be some plot holes. How to follow the signal when reading the schematic? Se7en's "Sloth" was a very, very underweight young man. She ostensibly chooses the latter option. The Killer Is David Fincher's Best Chance To Make Another Se7en, SpongeBob SquarePants' Super Dark Se7en Easter Egg Explained, Every Unmade David Fincher Movie (& Why They Didn't Happen), Every David Fincher & Brad Pitt Movie, Ranked Worst To Best. He wanted a normal family life like Mills had; when Tracy Mills (Gwyneth Paltrow) refused to go along with him, he killed her, making her a victim of Envy, her death off-screen and her unseen, decapitated head mailed to Mills and Somerset in the desert. After leading Mills and Somerset to a remote location, a box is delivered for Mills. But Se7en has several missing links.this particular one is probably one of them. Se7en, the thriller film directed by David Fincher, has some big names and even bigger surprises. Mills taunts him by saying that he has delusions of grandeur, but Somerset says very little. Se7en is a legendary horror film for a whole lot of reasons, but the most memorable aspect of the film in most people's minds is obviously the whole "what's in the box" moment. At that particular moment, the film is reaching its climatic and horrific end, and there is a single frame of Gwyneth Paltrow's face that appears on screen at the very second that begins the seven-minute countdown to the end in a little homage to the brutal realization of what exactly is in the box. Also given that its almost constantly raining throughout the film, they likely had rain machines. Indeed, in John's home, several newspaper clippings can be seen on a cupboard that describe Eli Gould defending Victor and getting him an acquittal, so this may have been how John Doe selected them.Which brings us to the seventh victim. So clearly John Doe (Kevin Spacey) has a plan of killing seven different people based on the Seven Deadly Sins. David Fincher's Se7enboasts one of the most memorable endings in cinematic history, cementing its pop culture relevance even decades after its release. John further explains how Tracy begged for her life and the life of the child inside her then realizes that Mills didn't even know she was pregnant. Theodore Victor Allen was a drug dealer, pedophile and one of John Does victims. here are the 7 sins and how are these murders executed: 1) Gluttony: I dont know, maybe she was a unnecessarily nasty person inside and deserved it. Press J to jump to the feed. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. In the Philokalia, the word dejection is used instead of sloth, for the person who falls into dejection will lose interest in life. A professional gambler was the best I can come up with. It isnt exactly meeting deadlines or pushing paper. @HorusKol The argument of the statement is, we've had 25 years to pick it apart and analyse and/or compare to movies that have done something similar, ripped off and or both and did it better. I was baffled. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. "I didn't like my time in New York," he admitted, "but it's true that if I hadn't lived there I probably wouldn't have written Seven." Filed under: Movies | Tagged: crime, film, john doe, kevin spacey, Movie, murder, se7en, serial killer, seven, Seven deadly sins, Sloth |. He was purposely bled to death by being forced at gunpoint to sacrifice a pound of his own flesh from his lower abdomen. Victor was discovered by police exactly a year after his kidnapping, after John Doe used his hand while killing Greed. He said he would do it, but ONLY if it was the draft he read. Victor became a drug dealer and was arrested several times for a variety of crimes, including assault and the attempted rape of a minor. Which is the one he made. 99girlpoblems 5 yr. ago. That's your only instance of foreshadowing here. I dont know. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Se7en has really grown on me over the years. Related:Every Unmade David Fincher Movie (& Why They Didn't Happen). ("Against Idleness and Mischief" by Isaac Watts). The goal of /r/Movies is to provide an inclusive place for discussions and news about films with major releases. Unfortunately our killer interpreted what the classical definition of sloth was. Why? to find the restrained, skeletalvictim of a serial killer, You can't pray away Harry Melling's crawling spider sermon. John Doe tells Mills that he killed Tracy out of envy and "took her pretty head." I made a screen shot here. I know this movie came years before Saw, but I would have liked John Doe a lot more if he had a bit more Jigsaw in him. Hello, well technically the term sloth as a sin, encompasses not only laziness, but idling and wasting your life away, without doing anything substantial. Mills' "simple" life. However, with one big exception towards the end of the film, Doe doesnt appear to force the sin he punishes on to the victim in the first place he just exacts a sort of poetic justice. As a rule, looking at the majority of the victims, the sin is major part of their lifestyle before they meet John Doe. John Doe's seven deadly sin murders prove this, as those guilty are punished accordingly - drawing a parallel with Dante'Alighieri's "Divine Comedy", which in itself heavily inspired Milton's "Paradise Lost". The murders in the film, as the title implies, all follow a fairly basic theme, with each based around one of the seven deadly sins. What was the ending of Night Moves about? Maybe because I've only seen the movie on TNT. "And David Fincher told me, 'You look horrific, it's great.' Sure, its an entertaining and interesting serial killer movie but I dont see how its a masterpiece. Se7en is a creative and bold film with an ending so shocking that it still hasn't lost its luster. When I first watched it I jumped so high I could've landed on the moon. It's said that the Gluttony victim's stomach "burst" but, when he's found, his abdomen clearly isn't open and none of his internal organs seem to be hanging out. According to Christian tradition the seven deadly sins are: envy, gluttony, greed or avarice, lust, pride, sloth, and wrath. Perhaps theres an aspect of enablement to this. That said, abusing children seems like more than spiritual apathy its a much more direct and active type of crime, and it feels like it would have been more firmly rooted in lust. Following this, Doe moves on to pride, the fifth sin, and his next victim is a model named Rachel Slade. However, the guy locked in his apartment (and, about a year afterwards, inside his own head), doesnt appear to have been especially slothful. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Humongous cave bears, saber-toothed tigers, and massive-antlered Irish elk roam the grasslands and forests of South America, but the biggest of all is the Megatherium, an elephant-sized ground sloth. The victim here is a drug-dealing pederast who John Doe tied up and doped up in his bed for a year, feeding and maintaining (and sanitizing and bandaging) him, just enough to keep him alive to the point where his poor victims brain turned to mush. The thing is, this third victim is actually still alive. Unless you accept the well-argued comment above about sloth being mroe spiritual than literal. Now, near the end we come to know that John Doe himself is the representation of Envy. He is induced into sloth by John Doe. While Mills holds John at gunpoint, Somerset meets the van. I guess because the chick was some Supermodel or actress or whatever she was guilty of pride? I loved it, but I have no idea why sloth wasnt as self explanatory as the other murders. Perhaps Im reading too much into it and the guy was just a lazy bag of bits, but its strange that this grabbed me weird fancy one evening. Yes, but all of the other victims had aspects of their life that made the punishment poetic. Much like the endings to otherDavid Fincher movies,Se7en's final moments leave its ending relatively open to interpretation, but the Hemingway quote implies that Somerset has decided to fight for the world, even though it isn't the fine place Hemingway believed it to be. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Im not sure that he does allow his victims a chance to avert their fate. Director Leigh Whannell was so pleased with MacKay's villainous auditionfor 2015's "Insidious: Chapter 3" that he complimented the workbysaying, "Youreminded me of that guy in 'Seven,' " MacKay recalls. I didnt proofread it before I sent it. Movies & TV Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for movie and TV enthusiasts. With Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey, and Gwyneth Paltrow rounding out the film's central cast, David Fincher'sSe7en serves as a lasting example of achieving a tightly-packed modern noir thriller. Gluttony is over-indulgence and over-consumption of anything to the point of waste. But Im sure you get the gist of it. And that Took a fair amount of time to come up with that. A prisoner stays in his cell, because he literally has no choice. That scene was so horrific and memorable, I never even thought of a criticism of the scene. It is possible that Victor and Eli Gould were among the first victims targeted, even though they were not the first two to be found. Gluttony, lust, sloth, and greed are all particularly brutal. We don't know very much with him, besides he was forced on drugs and rotted away in bed for a year or something. This roach-infested house is 720 Beacon Avenue south of 7th Street in the Westlake district east of MacArthur Park. Envy and Wrath are not revealed until the very end of the movie. So he planned to use the wife of whatever detective it will be. Doe strapped Allen to his bed and kept him barely alive for a full year, taking and leaving pictures to prove Allen's suffering in line with the sin of sloth. 2023 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Satellite Information Network, LLC. I love those kinds of details in films. Just based on the appearance and overall vibe of the movie, most of the audience members have typically assumed that the film is set in New York City. Doe mutilates Slade's face, then gives her the option of calling for help and living with her disfigurement or ending her own life with an overdose of sleeping pills. When youre smuggling drugs and abusing children (like the guy in the movie was), youre showing spiritual apathy. All of the other victims ( as stated ) occupations or actions clearly reflected their respective sin. The actor was toldhe was basically a corpse, so he had to remain entirely still until his big moment. The argument "it's old so it's bad" is simply horrible. Would love to chat more about the movie. Who was originally considered for the role of John Doe? How did John Doe select his victims? With regards to being taught a lesson, I dont think any of Does crimes are justifiable. The "Pride" victim was a model (Heidi Schanz) whose nose was cut off, disfiguring her. The cast is outstanding, the bizarre mystery gut-wrenching, and the direction impeccable. Did the guy think it was for a movie or something? And in his masterpiece the mills who e is driven to wrath , vs that being his everyday sin circumstantial sin in the moment .unlike his other victims mills survived. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. A sort of, no good can come from here place. Both Pitt and Freeman do a great job lending their movie personas to their roles, but these roles are fairly conventional rookie and soon-to-be-retiring veteran. He was convicted with having sex with an underage girl, which would lead one to assume lust might be a more appropriate sin. Are used voice text on my previous comment. Think about R. Lee Ermeys line in the film about Victor being raised a strict Southern Baptist but eschewing it in favor of dealing drugs (neither a difficult or virtuous job) and being a paedophile (real relationships take work and commitment, overpowering a minor with rape is neither difficult nor committed). Scrolled and searched for comments about the effects of hardcore drugs in relation to Sevens sloth and I wasnt fucking disappointed. I suppose drug dealing is a lazy way to make money, but child abuse doesnt seem slothful. Brad Pitt's Detective Millsthen kills Doe, making Doe the sixth victim (representing envy) and ensuring Mills becomes the embodiment of the final sin (wrath). Directors have been using their abilities to shock and scare their actors in real life in order to get a more convincing performance out of them pretty much since the beginning of horror films. The SLOTH victim, exactly why was he to be tortured to death "this" way? He cut off her fucking nose! So a guy is large, that doesnt mean he deserves to be punished; a lawyer is successful, that doesnt merit Does justice; the prostitute killed during the lust crime was probably just trying to make ends meet. Then I too thought oooohh she must of used the blood rushing out of her nose. Both believe they live in a Crapsack World, but Doe believes that because he is a completely egotistical bastard who ignores his . in the last scene, Tracy died by Doe's jealousy hence "envy" then Doe died by Mills' hatred hence "wrath" Share Improve this answer Follow answered Jan 27, 2015 at 22:17 Gab 21 1 Add a comment 0 By the way, I checked the on-line dictionary for a definition of sloth and the following came back: Reluctance to work or make an effort; laziness. Se7en. Also, John mentions about the Pride victim that she was "so ugly on the inside (that) she couldn't bear to go on living if she couldn't be beautiful on the outside", implying that he knew her personally, and she wasn't selected shortly before. That actually gave me the biggest scare of the move. "For Satan finds some mischief still for idle hands to do." If its drug dealer inducing sloth argument then John Doe is guilty of sloth as well. Doe hoped that in turn Mills would then kill him, fulfilling the final sin, wrath (which also makes sure John is punished by death for his sin). Its fairly obvious where sloth comes into the creepy poetic fate Doe has mapped out for the former criminal, to the point that the character cant actually leave the bed. It's police lingo for the word "detective", a shortened version of it. There is no definitive answer to that anywhere in the movie. But thatwas me. and the coroner replies "Yes and no.". Ugh just the brief flash of the Polaroid is enough to get your imagination going to dark places. Choosing being a criminal and to rape children is easy to do, because he chooses not to work hard and prefers to make money in the easy way, meaning forms of both physical and mental sloth. Discussing the homicide later with Mills and their captain, Somerset mentions that Doe had tortured the man by forcing him to eat a huge amount of food and then kicked him in the back, causing the internal rupture. I see you choose to ignore the existence of Alien 3 ;), Supposedly, when the movie company sent Fincher the draft for 7, they sent him the wrong one. By manipulating Detective Mills into killing him and bringing his plan to fruition, John Doe wins. ", RELATED:IT: 10 Hidden Details About The Main Characters Completely Missed. Victor was attacked and kidnapped by John Doe, who later strapped him to a bed and inflicted countless injuries on him, even severing his hand. To be honest though, I stumbled on this blog looking for more theories about the research into the victims deterioration. Initially, he was set to receive near to top billing at the start of the film, but the cast and crew decided that the revelation of John Doe would have a much bigger impact if the audience had no idea that it was coming, and if Spacey's name appeared in the beginning credits, then the audience would have been waiting for him to show up. You were 100% not reading too much into it. He was recently transfered to homicide, and John Doe could not have known beforehand that Mills would be one of the detectives working on the case. -1 for reading skills. Though he's not killed like Doe's other victims, Mills is still a victim because of the long-term psychological effects of the ordeal. And while Se7en is actually relatively low on the typical scale of horror movie jump scares, there is one particular moment where he decided to employ this filmmaking technique to make the shocking moment even more effective. RELATED:The 10 Most Terrifying Monster Movies of the 90s, Ranked. There is a picture of the fourth victim (Lust) in John's house, which may imply he had his eye on her some time, but without an indication of when it was taken, there is no sure way to tell. I think Doe chose Victor, a pederast and drug dealer as a victim because honest work is hard to do and requirse a lot of effort. In this respect, it felt similar to The Social Network. Following a trail of murders based on each of the seven deadly sins eventually leads Mills and Somerset to John Doe (Kevin Spacey), who has yet to finish his plan. They walk back along the road for a few yards until Somerset notices a white van approaching them. Hope that helps! However, the film studio was initially very strongly against this plot twist, as they thought it was far too dark for mainstream audiences to enjoy. But did fans notice these cool, hidden details? Was it long-term planning, or did he choose them "on the spot". 10 must-see new movies to see while stuck at home, from 'Mulan' to 'Rebecca', All the best movies we saw at New York Film Festival, Your California Privacy Rights/Privacy Policy. He was rendered immobile tied to a bed and left to rot in his own excriment with a feeding tube. And the intention behind the particular shot is clear, however, there are some pretty hilarious Easter eggs that many viewers probably didn't notice on the first watch. I am royally freaked the fuck out right now, calming myself down like 'I'm okay.. The "Sloth" victim was Victor (Michael Reid MacKay), a notorious paedophile. The-Se7en Wiki is a FANDOM Movies Community. Police also discovered numerous polaroid photos depicting Victor as his condition worsened throughout the year. I think part of the genius of Se7en is the fact that John Doe doesn't necessarily have "rules" per se. Thanks, Pat. Laziness is choice. This quote is important as it further proves that John Doe's actions had their desired effect on his adversaries. The one they wanted him to make was a water down cop drama (I think.). I'm Brad."). :). suicide by pills. I thought the exact same thing after I rewatched it; I came across your article because I was so bothered trying to make full sense of it that I had to Google it. What are the seven deadly sins? This suggests that John Doe already selected Victor and began planning his entire work well before he captured him. Although it could be argued that drug dealer could induce sloth (laziness or idleness) to his clients (assuming they bought downers and pot versus speed etc) or that the victims lack of employment (leads him to sin of dealing drugs and molestation), the victim is not a strong depiction of sloth (someone smoking pot to extreme or other example of extreme idleness would be). Im really curious how accurate Finchers depiction of the victim is. Its amazing and sometimes bizarre the questions we have after watching a film particularly after weve already seen it, so we arent focusing on the plot so much. Its perfect. Se7en / Seven Ending Explained (A Detailed Plot Analysis) Se7en or Seven is a 1995 Psychological Thriller, Crime Drama directed by David Fincher. Youre stoner comments inaccurate , I think you just watch to many movies. Mills' murder of Doe brings him down to the killer's level, which by Doe's own logic proves that no one, even the most admirable person, is above sin. Not only did he succeed in manipulating Mills, but he also shocked Somerset out of his own apathy, forcing the older detective to reevaluate his choice to retire. Where are Billy Crudup, Kate Hudson, Patrick Fugit now? "Im pretty proud of it. I do not think the movie is bad because its as old as my nieces and nephews nor do i think its bad at all. John Doe doesnt seem to have much characterization, other than his signature criminal pathology. At one point in the film, there is a close-up shot of a newspaper that is detailing the horrific crimes that John Doe has been committing. After all, hes the kind of person who can disappear for a year without anybody missing him enough to check his last known address. Or, perhaps, merely fronting for a drug organisation isnt exactly the most demanding of occupations. Thats not necessarily right. Did Brendan cripple Marcos Santos on purpose? So Im thinking a drug dealer was the best choice for sloth. David Fincher's 1995 thriller Se7en boasts one of the best shock endings in cinema, but it's far more than a simple twist and an iconic line. A few months back, I watched the film se7en twice in quick succession, as I knew two people who hadnt seen it, and thought I might join them. John Doe's plan sees Somerset continue in his role as a detective, effectively trapping him in purgatory and making him the film's final victim. The "Envy" victim is the story's criminal, John Doe (Kevin Spacey). The gluttony victim wasnt given a choice or opportunity like the pride victim, he was simply murdered in a horrific way. For gluttony, our serial killer had a guy literally eat himself to death. Related:SpongeBob SquarePants' Super Dark Se7en Easter Egg Explained. I never really felt like any of the characters were particularly interesting. I definitely agree, to me that was the worst murder (but maybe that's because I'm a girl so just thinking about it makes me all freaked out). Submissions should be for the purpose of informing or initiating a discussion, not just to entertain readers. Theodore "Victor" Allen is a drug dealer and child molester who appeared as a minor antagonist in the 1995 film Se7en and the comic book. I think it works so well because, as you observe, theyre archetypes even the city is just the city, archetypal and anonymous. Then you clearly don't remember the lust victim. Seven - Sloth Scene os99 213 subscribers 1.1M views 14 years ago This is the discovery of the Sloth victim in the 1995 masterpiece Seven (or Se7en). The manipulator had placed an IV in Victor's arm to provide him with just enough . ", 'The Devil All the Time':You can't pray away Harry Melling's crawling spider sermon. How can I explain to my manager that a project he wishes to undertake cannot be performed by the team? It was also revealed that he had chewed off his own tongue 'long ago' in an attempt at suicide. The film was shot, however, at several locations in Los Angeles and near Lancaster, CA. I think Seven is a great movie, but I fast forward through the Lust kill, every time. Related:The Killer Is David Fincher's Best Chance To Make Another Se7en. 2. [better source needed]Views concerning the virtue of work to support . Amanda started to believe that people would never change even if they were able to escape the traps, so she made the traps inescapable. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Sloth is apathy toward ones own spiritual and moral obligations. It has none of the stylistic polished way of his later films. And apparently Spacey was pleased with the decision since it meant he didn't have to do any press for the film. He should represent slothness (even this sin as a description isn't exactly clear)whatever that means. " (Pitt was relaxed, yelling from a side room as MacKay passed, "Howyou doing? User Ratings It reminds of the part of Inception where they blow up the hospital. Edit, The "Gluttony" victim (Bob Mack) was an unnamed obese man who was forced to eat until his stomach bursts, killing him. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I dont think thats quite it. I think se7en suffers because every serial killer movie since has been trying to ape it at the time, the only film that really felt similar was The Silence of the Lambs, but now films like that are a dime a dozen. On the other hand, I suppose, as I sit here thinking about it, you could argue that John Doe wouldnt consider selling drugs to be a job at all. John Doe kills her, fulfilling the sin of envy because he envied Det. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Doe probably also had his eye on Eli Gould, the second victim (Greed), because he was the one who kept Victor out of jail. Thanks Casper. The main killer in the movie is actually never shown killing any of his victims, and the only on-screen death in the whole film is when Detective Mills kills John Doe in the very end. Often listed among the most popular and well-loved thriller movies of all time,Se7en proved to be something of a star vehicle for the then up-and-coming Brad Pitt. Wrath/rage is inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger.

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